CoachX Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 9 hours ago, ruxpin said: I really want to say "build goalie out." Ideally both. But if I had to choose, then great defense and a goalie who will make the stops he's supposed to Somewhere in this forum, I made a feeble attempt at this POV. In looking back over the NHL, how many true generational goalies have there been? Not too many. MAF has 3 cups wins, but I dont think any team is mortgaging the farm to get him today. So given that Patrick Roy or Marty Brodeur aren't regular commodities, it seems like more emphasis should be building a well balanced team that is strong in all areas, preferably with a dominant defensive unit. Im not saying you can plug and play any slug back there. You need a guy you can count on. But you don't need a HOF goalie to win a cup 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 11 hours ago, CoachX said: But you don't need a HOF goalie to win a cup I have to agree with this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I dont. I think that tweet is nonsense. No, you don't fix your goal scoring problem by trading your goalie. Unless the return brings you a player(s) who are better at scoring goals than the goalie is at stopping them. Not to mention a top flight offensive player who gets you says, 90pts, is now responsible in some way for 90 goals being scored My comments were based in generalities on how a team should be made up, and where the priorities should lie. They weren't specifically meant to assess this current.....team. I think more teams win SC with a better team, than with a HOF caliber, generational goalie. So if trading Hart brought you the assets needed to bring the team back to legit...LEGIT... contenders, I would do it Sounds like DB would too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 hour ago, CoachX said: Unless the return brings you a player(s) who are better at scoring goals than the goalie is at stopping them. Well you answered your own question then. Who is going to come back in a trade who is going to do that? Goalie don't return a lot from a trade. If so please refresh my memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Outside of a few HOFers (and Hart is not a HOFer), goalies are more like relief pitchers. They often have a couple of dominating years, sometimes in a row, mixed with average (or worse) years, and it's very hard to predict from year to year what version you are going to get. Flyers shouldn't let their lack of even average goaltending for most of the last 20 years make them so enamored of Hart that they don't consider moving him for a good return if there is one to be had. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 Was feeling good when i woke up till this... ...ruined the day already now i'm going back to bed. Fukin Chuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 9 hours ago, CoachX said: So if trading Hart brought you the assets needed to bring the team back to legit...LEGIT... contenders, I would do it Sounds like DB would too Why would they not? 7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Goalie don't return a lot from a trade. Then don't make the trade. Being willing to move Hart isn't the same as driving him to the airport. This isn't Kevin Hayes. And if you don't put it out there, you don't know what might be on offer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 8 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Well you answered your own question then. I don't want my own answer, I already know what it is. Plus it continues to perpetuate the false narrative that Im always right 8 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Goalie don't return a lot from a trade. If so please refresh my memory How the hell should I know? we all know I don't pay attention to the rest of the league. There was that time Hextall was part of the trade to bring some Lindros kid to the Flyers. Does that count? and how about this.....i looked it up..... St. Louis traded Rick Wamsley for some guy named Brett Hull. So there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said: Flyers shouldn't let their lack of even average goaltending for most of the last 20 years make them so enamored of Hart that they don't consider moving him for a good return if there is one to be had. in theory yes, certainly you consider everyone on the roster and what they’ll return. But in practice I worry about trading Hart for anyone but a bona fide superstar…and who’s giving up their superstar for Carter Hart? Right. Nobody. I look at it like this. The Flyers have a couple guys making way too much money for what they bring. Solve that situation first. That doesn’t mean you blind yourself to other possible moves but the priorities are clear imho: trade Hayes and Ristolainen and figure out what’s up with Couturier and Atkinson. That’ll be more than enough for one summer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said: in theory yes, certainly you consider everyone on the roster and what they’ll return. But in practice I worry about trading Hart for anyone but a bona fide superstar…and who’s giving up their superstar for Carter Hart? Right. Nobody. I look at it like this. The Flyers have a couple guys making way too much money for what they bring. Solve that situation first. That doesn’t mean you blind yourself to other possible moves but the priorities are clear imho: trade Hayes and Ristolainen and figure out what’s up with Couturier and Atkinson. That’ll be more than enough for one summer. Im not advocating one way or another, but the discussion was Hart for Matthews. To the rest of your point, you wrote "figure out" Coots and CA. What if that means they stay and play becasue they are under contract. Is that enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CoachX said: I don't want my own answer, I already know what it is. Plus it continues to perpetuate the false narrative that Im always right Ok then no. You will not get the scorer which you seek for Hart. Hate to be that guy but someone had to do it. 19 minutes ago, CoachX said: How the hell should I know? As far as i can remember there haven't been any. 19 minutes ago, CoachX said: St. Louis traded Rick Wamsley for some guy named Brett Hull. So there lol uh you forgot the center piece of that trade Rob Ramage to play with McInnis, Suter and McCrimmon...Rick just backed up Mike Vernon. And damn you had to go back 34 years to dig that one up. Great work... Edited May 30, 2023 by OccamsRazor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 21 minutes ago, CoachX said: Im not advocating one way or another, but the discussion was Hart for Matthews. There's a good chance Matthews is available and there's a definite need for a goalie in Tronno. The outlines are there. I don't think the Flyers ultimately have the pieces other teams can offer in terms of picks and prospects they'd be willing to part with. Danny Jonsey will make the decision whether the deal is worth making if the Leaes make it known Matthews is available. We'll know more in the last couple of weeks of June. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said: I look at it like this. The Flyers have a couple guys making way too much money for what they bring. Solve that situation first. That doesn’t mean you blind yourself to other possible moves but the priorities are clear imho: trade Hayes and Ristolainen and figure out what’s up with Couturier and Atkinson. That’ll be more than enough for one summer. Trading Hayes and Ristolainen will cost assets and make them better in the short term and worse in the long term, just like nearly every move they’ve made in the last 15-20 years. If you want more of the same, do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 59 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: Trading Hayes and Ristolainen will cost assets and make them better in the short term and worse in the long term, Hayes should cost cap space only. Ristolainen...keep him around see if he can raise his value and trade him at a future trade deadline. He wasn't a blackhole of suck-itude last season. Chuck Fletcher isn't the GM anymore. No more paying to trade bad contracts with picks. I don't see these new guys doing that. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Whether Hayes can be traded, even retaining 50% salary, remains to be seen. But I’m definitely not including a pick, even a 7th, to do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 57 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: Whether Hayes can be traded, even retaining 50% salary, remains to be seen. He was an all star! He had the second most points of his career! He almost scored 20 goals! He was only -22! He did a great job of implementing Vigneault's system! C'mon now, some team with a couple of top Boston College prospects and cap space will get him to mentor the kids as they come up. Oh, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JR Ewing Posted May 30, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) People around here are talking about Carter Hart for Auston Matthews trades (yes, I understand that the Leafs would rather get something than nothing, but still...), and I'm seeing a goaltender who has been above 50% in Quality Starts once in four years, where decent starters should be around 60%. He was 35th in Goals Saved Above Expected/60 this year. He was 61st last year and 83rd the year before that... This is all an improvement: two or so seasons ago, some here were saying there wasn't a player in the NHL they wouldn't trade him for, up and to and including Connor McDavid. If I were in the GM seat, it wouldn't be my priority to move him, but I would absolutely listen to an intriguing offer. He had a nice rookie year, but just hasn't followed it up in a way which makes me see him as a star goaltender in the making. Goalies are almost always voodoo, and there's just no telling what they will be. imo, tying your long term hopes to them just doesn't work out most of the time. --- And even if a person sees Hart as the future, and does see him as The Guy, he'll be nearing 30 by the time the cluster around him is ready, and he'll be starting the downward phase of his career. Edited May 30, 2023 by JR Ewing 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 33 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: People around here are talking about Carter Hart for Auston Matthews trades (yes, I understand that the Leafs would rather get something than nothing, but still...) I think idle speculation about the possibility of two teams fitting each others' needs isn't outrageous, but I take your point - especially since I'm pretty clear I don't think the Flyers have the assets to acquire Matthews even with Hart (without losing other pieces they don't want to lose). Hart is also on an expiring contract, but is a RFA with arbitration. Your numbers indicate his arbitration case wouldn't be strong, but if he blossoms in Tronno they can still keep him and create space by moving Matthews. Leafs must get "something" for Matthews if he doesn't extend before July 1. The possibility (likelihood?) that he walks is too much to lose if you're Tronno. Hart, Provorov, Florida's #1 next year for Matthews, Muzzin, Mikko Kokinen, and holy crap the Leafs' draft pick situation is even worse than the Flyers'... As I've said, I don't see it actually happening, but when teams are in rock-and-hard-place position, they do things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 59 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: People around here are talking about Carter Hart for Auston Matthews trades (yes, I understand that the Leafs would rather get something than nothing, but still...), and I'm seeing a goaltender who has been above 50% in Quality Starts once in four years, where decent starters should be around 60%. He was 35th in Goals Saved Above Expected/60 this year. He was 61st last year and 83rd the year before that... This is all an improvement: two or so seasons ago, some here were saying there wasn't a player in the NHL they wouldn't trade him for, up and to and including Connor McDavid. If I were in the GM seat, it wouldn't be my priority to move him, but I would absolutely listen to an intriguing offer. He had a nice rookie year, but just hasn't followed it up in a way which makes me see him as a star goaltender in the making. Goalies are almost always voodoo, and there's just no telling what they will be. imo, tying your long term hopes to them just doesn't work out most of the time. --- And even if a person sees Hart as the future, and does see him as The Guy, he'll be nearing 30 by the time the cluster around him is ready, and he'll be starting the downward phase of his career. Agree with every word. I'd like to say Hart would still be an upgrade from Murray and Samsonov (maybe), but Matthews would be way more than the bargain basement rates the Leafs have paid previously. I have no reason to believe they'd start spending that kind of collateral on a goalie now. Fun to talk about, but 1) I don't want Matthews and 2) Hart doesn't get him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 17 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I have no reason to believe they'd start spending that kind of collateral on a goalie now. The whole concept would be that the Leafs need to move Matthews or risk losing him for nothing. (also, too, that that's not all that's involved) Their own experience with the guy currently wearing the "C" for them should be instructional in that regard. They also have Nylander coming up after next season, Tavares and Marner the next year, and have $9M in cap space this year. And this is a team that believed they were two years away five years ago... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, radoran said: They also have Nylander coming up after next season, Tavares and Marner the next year, and have $9M in cap space this year. One would think they would try to extend Matthew and when the time comes trade Tavres. Tavres is already 32 years old .... not over the hill by any extend of the imagination, but an age when most hockey players start the downward slide of their careers. Unless you are the ageless wonder ... see Ovechkin, Alex. But you get my drift, knowing that Tavres is coming up in 2 years, one would think the new GM "might" try to bridge the gap when Tavres comes off the books and look to move Tavres. The Leafs have almost 50% of their Cap space wrapped up in those 4 players. It could be naïve thinking on my part here, but one would think to try to move Tavres in order to keep Matthews. But yes ...the Leafs have some VERY hard decisions coming up ....... The Leafs really did go for broke this year and it blew up in their face. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Why does Tavares want to leave Tronno? And Matthews' NMC doesn't kick in until July 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 4 hours ago, pilldoc said: Tavres is already 32 years old .... not over the hill by any extend of the imagination This is a weird statement In Flyerland anyone over 28 is ancient and needs to traded away immediately 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 28 minutes ago, radoran said: Why does Tavares want to leave Tronno? Just thinking outside the box ... I have no idea what the Leafs are going to do. Just thinking on ways "they" might be able to keep Matthews ...that is all I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 6 hours ago, ruxpin said: Agree with every word. I'd like to say Hart would still be an upgrade from Murray and Samsonov (maybe), but Matthews would be way more than the bargain basement rates the Leafs have paid previously. I have no reason to believe they'd start spending that kind of collateral on a goalie now. Fun to talk about, but 1) I don't want Matthews and 2) Hart doesn't get him. Hart would definitely be an upgrade over Murray, since the guy is always injured. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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