flyer4ever Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 The really great ones would much rather have the ring and the legacy, and would leave cash on the table. And, they more than make up the cash with off ice endorsements. The Verhaghes of the world have to grab the big contract when it comes along. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 7 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Ok, right, I just meant on the high priced. Matthews new contract is going to be, what? $14,000,000 per? And as good of a regular season playrs as he is, he doesn't put the team on his back come playoff time. For $14, 000,000 you kinda hope you'll get that. Ya, I argued against a trade for Matthews in another thread for those reasons but I'd still look at it given the Leafs situation. Cap should rise so a star player locked up could work for us, even if he is just a regular season guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 7 hours ago, radoran said: Matthews isn't a Connor McDavid, but he's light years better than a Claude Giroux in that same capacity. Matthews, Konecny, Farabee, Tippett would be a good forward group to start with and then you have Old Forester, Gauthier, and whoever the 7 pick is this draft as a new core. That group without Matthews is still needing that "next level" player to be the consistent 35-40 (40+) goal scorer. to be clear, they don't need to go after Matthews right now, although they could given the no-trade window. But what I hope we will see in a new leadership philosophy the abandonment of the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" mantra. Having a 1 in 20 shot doesn't mean you will win one in 20 times. It means you lose 95% of the time each time you try. Agreed, but you have to make the call. IF Matthews doesn't want to be there or they don't want to re-sign him with the new management/direction you've got leverage on the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 12 hours ago, radoran said: What's Connor McDavid going to get? Asking as an American. Probably the same. But we're not talking about going after McDavid. The conversation is brought up about going after Matthews. McDavid 49 playoff games 75 points. Matthews 50 playoff games 44 points. As a hockey fan it's pretty obvious who, by far, is the better playoff performer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, radoran said: Matthews isn't a Connor McDavid, but he's light years better than a Claude Giroux in that same capacity. Matthews, Konecny, Farabee, Tippett would be a good forward group to start with and then you have Old Forester, Gauthier, and whoever the 7 pick is this draft as a new core. That group without Matthews is still needing that "next level" player to be the consistent 35-40 (40+) goal scorer. to be clear, they don't need to go after Matthews right now, although they could given the no-trade window. But what I hope we will see in a new leadership philosophy the abandonment of the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" mantra. Having a 1 in 20 shot doesn't mean you will win one in 20 times. It means you lose 95% of the time each time you try. Auston and Claude are averaging almost identical PPG in the playoffs throughout their careers. Claude saw the finals once. And is paid far less. And wasn't a 1st overall pick. Matthews had a whopping 6 more points than Giroux in this regular season, and he's 10 years younger than him. Giroux $6.5 mil. Matthews $11.64 mil. Just not the guy to build a team around IMO. That group of Flyers, IF you went after Matthews, likely wouldn't include among other things, Konecny, that 7th overall pick, or Gauthier. Toronto isn't sending him to us for Hayes, Deangelo and Risto (unless they hire Fletcher, we can only hope...Dubas is gone) Which is why I really don't want to chase that guy making top dollar who has proven to be a lesser playoff performer than regular season. I realize you have to make the playoffs, and anything can happen. I'd just prefer a slower, planned rebuild, through the draft, where you have cheap quality talent constantly coming up and then you take your shot with the big FA signing or trade. We always go after the big splash first. Edited May 20, 2023 by flyercanuck 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 13 hours ago, flyer4ever said: The really great ones would much rather have the ring and the legacy, and would leave cash on the table Maybe... Maybe not. I happen to agree, but it's just an opinion. First we need to define what qualifies as a "great one". McDavid is the top player in the league, but has he achieved "great" status? Then you have to factor if he is "great", does he feel his abilities could turn a lesser team, offering more money, into a cup contender? We all want to believe the olayers we follow are good character guys who care about the game and fans more than anything, but in the end, it's a business 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Probably the same. But we're not talking about going after McDavid. The conversation is brought up about going after Matthews. McDavid 49 playoff games 75 points. Matthews 50 playoff games 44 points. As a hockey fan it's pretty obvious who, by far, is the better playoff performer. I personally don't equate player value on something like past playoff performance. It's just one dynamic. You have to factor in what the rest of team was. Who else was out there with the player? Were injuries a factor? WHO WAS THE COACH? As you're saying here FC, this isn't about McDavid. It's about Matthews. My two cents, which isn't worth a penny today, says if the Flyers can add a superstar player as part of their long term build, and don't have cut off their nose to spite their face, I say they do it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Auston and Claude are averaging almost identical PPG in the playoffs throughout their careers. Claude saw the finals once. And is paid far less. And wasn't a 1st overall pick. Matthews had a whopping 6 more points than Giroux in this regular season, and he's 10 years younger than him. Giroux $6.5 mil. Matthews $11.64 mil. Just not the guy to build a team around IMO. That group of Flyers, IF you went after Matthews, likely wouldn't include among other things, Konecny, that 7th overall pick, or Gauthier. Toronto isn't sending him to us for Hayes, Deangelo and Risto (unless they hire Fletcher, we can only hope...Dubas is gone) Which is why I really don't want to chase that guy making top dollar who has proven to be a lesser playoff performer than regular season. I realize you have to make the playoffs, and anything can happen. I'd just prefer a slower, planned rebuild, through the draft, where you have cheap quality talent constantly coming up and then you take your shot with the big FA signing or trade. We always go after the big splash first. Going to jump in here since I've been talking about Matthews in a trade context. Specifically for me it's Hart as a trade piece, it's not dismantling the team like your scenario suggests. Hart plus something for Matthews. Not Matthews for all the things of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Probably the same. But we're not talking about going after McDavid. The conversation is brought up about going after Matthews. McDavid 49 playoff games 75 points. Matthews 50 playoff games 44 points. As a hockey fan it's pretty obvious who, by far, is the better playoff performer. Yeah, I get the whole "points" thing. How many points wins you a Cup? Edited May 20, 2023 by radoran 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Going to jump in here since I've been talking about Matthews in a trade context. Specifically for me it's Hart as a trade piece, it's not dismantling the team like your scenario suggests. Hart plus something for Matthews. Not Matthews for all the things of value. Legit question, cause I don't really know, how many franchise goalies are there, and how often does one come along? From what I'm reading, there may only be one active goalie with 3 cups, and a couple with 2. Not saying I wouldn't want ONE, but my question is about how many guys come along who will win you more than one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 44 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Going to jump in here since I've been talking about Matthews in a trade context. Specifically for me it's Hart as a trade piece, it's not dismantling the team like your scenario suggests. Hart plus something for Matthews. Not Matthews for all the things of value. Ok, but Hart plus what? You're not getting Matthews for Hart and a throw in...for whatever reason, goalies just don't have as much value as they should. And then you're looking at a likely $14,000,000 a year new contract for a player who puts up around .85 playoff points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, radoran said: Yeah, ainget the whole "points" thing. How many points wins you a Cup? For sure...but some players (like Matthews) it IS a lot about the points. He's not a great 2 way player, he's a scorer. If you're paying a guy $14,000,000 it isn't for his shot blocking. If we had a team that just needed one elite scorer, then by all means, go out a grab the guy. Rebuilding by starting with the most expensive player who will likely be hitting his 30s before the Flyers matter (if we're lucky) to me just makes zero sense. Edited May 20, 2023 by flyercanuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 On 5/18/2023 at 2:54 PM, mojo1917 said: @CoachX all Fletched up needs an ALT+0174 that's some good stuff. All Fletched Up® LOL is that better or worse than being Munsoned? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 On 5/18/2023 at 11:49 AM, GratefulFlyers said: high quality if you please… indeed. But what does that mean to Briere and Jones these days? Tortorella’s a known quantity basically, over the years he’s shown what he demands as a coach. But the new GM and Prez…so far it’s been all platitudes and no specifics. That’s understandable at this stage, we’re only just starting the 3R of the playoffs, but I’m getting impatient for something concrete from the new GM.. I'm with you on impatience. But concrete is difficult and not just because of the already-mentioned playoffs. Concrete doesn't have to mean an actual trade. It could mean a concrete statement of "so and so if definitely not returning." We really don't even want to do that and undermine a possible return value for when you actually can do a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 1 hour ago, flyercanuck said: Ok, but Hart plus what? You're not getting Matthews for Hart and a throw in...for whatever reason, goalies just don't have as much value as they should. And then you're looking at a likely $14,000,000 a year new contract for a player who puts up around .85 playoff points. I'm getting Matthews+ or I'm keeping Hart. Tronno has seen what their current core can do and it's not enough. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 20, 2023 Author Share Posted May 20, 2023 6 hours ago, CoachX said: Legit question, cause I don't really know, how many franchise goalies are there, and how often does one come along? I watched/followed the Flyers since 1991....i have seen them draft one. Hart and sign Bob as a free agent that is pretty much it or all i can remember...they don't happen often for the Flyers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 I'm thinking that Chicago might be the perfect option for dumping Hayes. They're going to have some issues getting to the cap floor (unless they sign several free agents) and 3 years of Hayes as Bedard ascends and then gets paid might be just what they want. Ship him out Danny. Put a bow on him if you have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 Chicago is not taking Kevin Hayes without serious draft compensation attached to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 21, 2023 Author Share Posted May 21, 2023 7 hours ago, GrittyForever said: I'm thinking that Chicago might be the perfect option for dumping Hayes. They drafted him and he spurned them to sign with the Rangers so no i can not see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 32 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: They drafted him and he spurned them to sign with the Rangers so no i can not see that happening. He also said he wouldn't play for the Flyers unless they overpaid him....and here we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 My god WHAT is this obsession with Auston Matthews? Not only is it the wrong time to acquire a superstar (an overrated, overpriced star imho) but you’d actually consider giving up Carter Hart to get him? Plus another asset? I think the past 4+ years of Fletcher must’ve infected this board. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 21, 2023 Author Share Posted May 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: He also said he wouldn't play for the Flyers unless they overpaid him....and here we are. So what you're saying is all we have to do is get the Black Hawks to double his salary?? Genius!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 41 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: So what you're saying is all we have to do is get the Black Hawks to double his salary?? Genius!!!!!! I'm saying Hayes will play for whoever pays him. I mean sort of play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said: My god WHAT is this obsession with Auston Matthews? Not only is it the wrong time to acquire a superstar (an overrated, overpriced star imho) but you’d actually consider giving up Carter Hart to get him? Plus another asset? I think the past 4+ years of Fletcher must’ve infected this board. I dont know how you get to "obsession", when the discussion is specifically about him. I also don't understand your point that a perennial 40 goal scorer, with 542pts in 481 games, "overrated". He appears to be better at his job than Hart is at his 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 16 minutes ago, CoachX said: I dont know how you get to "obsession", when the discussion is specifically about him. I also don't understand your point that a perennial 40 goal scorer, with 542pts in 481 games, "overrated". He appears to be better at his job than Hart is at his This is a fan base that spent 10+ years insisting Claude Giroux was a superstar and Auston Matthews is "overrated." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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