SCFlyguy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 UFA! UFA! UFA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucson83 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 15 hours ago, ruxpin said: Like every one of your posts, I disagree with every delusional word. There's not a single Cup winning team in over a decade whose core wasn't drafted by that team. Not one. Facts are facts. really? explain the the blues, kings, bruins. do you want a cup or multiple cups? sounds like winning one cup isnt enough for you. that's what this is all about. even if we won one cup, you will not be happy. that's facts because i keep explaining teams that dont have top 5 players superstar talent and still won cups, you are still complaining and calling me a liar, so it sounds like you cant accept one cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) The Kraken vs. The Cracked Edited February 17, 2023 by FD19372 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 18 hours ago, tucson83 said: how is it the organization's fault the nhl has created a draft lottery that no teams in the nhl has no control over? what is it that you dont get? what if you dont get bedard? what's plan b? you keep thinking that we will get him and no one will, i mean we were supposed to get kane and gave us jvr and we had the worst record why are you just ignoring that scenario? it''s a lottery, we were supposed to have pick 4 this year and gave us 5, no one has control over it, it's rules of the nhl, if you dont follow them, you will be a trash nhl team. it's hard to win in the nhl, especially when you have a hard cap, you are not going to compete by tanking, you need proven stars to improve to speed up the rebuild and not hope for them because every draft class could have dud. no one is going to want our picks to get young stars back, especially if they are jvr or patrick, teams value picks more than they did in non salary cap league, you have to accept for what it is and make trades for stars that has very little value or get lucky in fa. there's no other way. i get the fact you want a cup, i want a cup, everyone in nhl wants a cup, it's cap strict league, you have to be patient and hope for stars to become available because teams wont just give them to you. nhl created this, no one else. blame them and if you cant be patient then maybe send letters to gary and maybe he will get rid of salary cap so teams in the nhl can get stars for nothing and see this team be a contender again. i dont know what else to tell you is just enjoy flyers hockey and hope things go our way. Interesting thoughts. LMAO. I knew it wasn't the chucktards fault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown guy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Getting swept by Hakstol. Ouch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, tucson83 said: really? explain the the blues, kings, bruins. do you want a cup or multiple cups? sounds like winning one cup isnt enough for you. that's what this is all about. even if we won one cup, you will not be happy. that's facts because i keep explaining teams that dont have top 5 players superstar talent and still won cups, you are still complaining and calling me a liar, so it sounds like you cant accept one cup. You're not "a liar" you're just "wrong". Boston won the Cup in 2011 which is 12 years ago (comment was "ten") but we'll go with this year's squad: Boston - Pastrnak, Bergeron, McAvoy, Marchand 2011 Kings - Doughty, Kopitar, Clifford, Brown, Voynov 2019 Blues - Tarasenko, Perron, Pietrangelo, Schwartz, Dunn You don't start with a bunch of 28-33 year olds and ADD youth to that, you start with the youth and then ADD the O'Reilly, Schenn, Bozak (or Crater/Richards). But it's the folly of looking at the past eight Cups and finding one that might fit the scenario, which it doesn't, and basing the entire strategy on that occurrance. It's like looking at 2010 and thinking "the Flyers are really just thisclose!" and instead they are the 2011 Vancouver Canucks, the 2012 New Jersey Devils, the 2014 Rangers, the 2016 Sharks and 2017 Predators. Teams that "made the Final" and then receded from memory... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Would you pull the trigger on a deal sending JVR to Dallas, for Gurianov? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 48 minutes ago, FD19372 said: Would you pull the trigger on a deal sending JVR to Dallas, for Gurianov? No ...... (not unless there is a lot coming back and that is simply not going to happen). Besides I want draft picks and realistic prospects. So let's just put this to rest, JVRT isn’t bringing the Flyers back a first. Especially as a rental player. Charlie O'Connor wrote wonderful piece about the realistic return on a JVR trade ..... Over the past three seasons, the rental forwards who have warranted a first-round pick package almost uniformly have been on another scoring level in comparison to JvR. In that group alone JVR is not even close to the to them so any expectations of a 1st should just be put to rest. The opposite end of the spectrum ..... OK, so JVR isn’t going to bring back a first. That’s too high for him. But what’s on the other side of his plausible range? What do market comparables make clear is far too low? But it would be GM malpractice to get only a fifth back (Flecth can't be that dumb ...can he???) — at that point, the Flyers might as well just keep him to mentor the young forwards for the final month and a half. That leaves the middle tier of the 2-4 range. The player below brought back at least 2nd Rd picks One could pretty easily argue that JvR is a more accomplished scorer than any of Calle Jarnkrok, Artturi Lehkonen, Rickard Rakell, Mattias Janmark and Tyler Toffoli were at the times of their trades. A few (Toffoli and Rakell) were in the midst of better goal-scoring seasons, but as an all-around point producer, no one in this tier really matches van Riemsdyk. All other factors being equal, this is probably where JvR deserves to fall. For starters, all five players came with significantly cheaper cap hits than JvR does, making them easier to fit at the deadline. Second, out of the five, only Jarnkrok was over 30, which matters when it comes to this key factor — aside from Jarnkrok, the remaining four players all ultimately re-signed with the team that traded for them at the deadline. In other words, while these were technically “rental” trades, the buying GMs were willing to pay a bit more knowing that the player might turn into a long-term piece if all went well. Given van Riemsdyk’s age (he’ll be 34 in May), he’s far less attractive as a long-term re-sign. Most clubs will be viewing him as a pure rental. Then there is the 3rd Rd pickj return.... more examples: Charlie goes on about the 4th RD return. Not even going down that road but I will anyway ... JVR is certainly better than that entire list. Well that is the list I would lump Gurionov in. He is a RFA at the end of the year. He is getting 2.9 million now. I am NOT paying 3 million per year for a 4th line winger. He has shown me nothing and frankly I would be pissed if Fletch traded for him. I don't care if he was the 12th overall pick in 2015. He simply has not grown. So no I would not do this trade. Realistically JVR should bring back a 2nd or 3rd and maybe a B prospect. It is what it is ........ Fletch is not smart enough to get more than what he is worth ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Given van Riemsdyk’s age (he’ll be 34 in May) Holy ****, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucson83 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 hours ago, radoran said: You're not "a liar" you're just "wrong". Boston won the Cup in 2011 which is 12 years ago (comment was "ten") but we'll go with this year's squad: Boston - Pastrnak, Bergeron, McAvoy, Marchand 2011 Kings - Doughty, Kopitar, Clifford, Brown, Voynov 2019 Blues - Tarasenko, Perron, Pietrangelo, Schwartz, Dunn You don't start with a bunch of 28-33 year olds and ADD youth to that, you start with the youth and then ADD the O'Reilly, Schenn, Bozak (or Crater/Richards). But it's the folly of looking at the past eight Cups and finding one that might fit the scenario, which it doesn't, and basing the entire strategy on that occurrance. It's like looking at 2010 and thinking "the Flyers are really just thisclose!" and instead they are the 2011 Vancouver Canucks, the 2012 New Jersey Devils, the 2014 Rangers, the 2016 Sharks and 2017 Predators. Teams that "made the Final" and then receded from memory... look at the hurricanes, they have youth that's working, no one is burning their organization for not having a mcdavid or bedard, they can trade for vet pieces to get them over top, that's probably what we are right now, we are a 500 team that needs to add pieces from other teams to get this team over the hump, like why does it have to be bedard or burn the organization down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, tucson83 said: look at the hurricanes, they have youth that's working, They have not won anything yet ...... (get back to me once they win the Conference Finals or SCF) There 3 top players were all drafted by Carolina. Aho went in 2nd RD. The Flyers meanwhile drafted Konecny at the end of the 1st RD. Tell me who you would rather have had: Flyers did not have a 2nd RD pick that year ...why...that's right they traded it away for that stiff MacDonald. The Philadelphia Flyers' second-round pick went to the Boston Bruins as the result of a trade on October 4, 2014 that sent Johnny Boychuk to New York in exchange for a second-round pick in 2016, a conditional third-round pick in 2015 and this pick. The Islanders previously acquired this pick as the result of a trade March 4, 2014 that sent Andrew MacDonald to Philadelphia in exchange for Matt Mangene, a third-round pick in 2014 and this pick. (SMH) Svechnikov was drafted #2 overall by the Canes and looks to be a star everyone thought he was going to be. Necas was drafted #12 overall by the Canes and is going to be a stud. He has more points than the bust we drafted and since traded. I would take those 3 Cane players over anyone in our lineup ....and guess what...they ALL WERE DRAFTED by the Canes. That is a solid nucleus to build around. They have always played Russian Roulette with their goalies .....Andersen is guaranteed to get hurt somewhere during the season and I would not hold my breath with Raanta. (Both are UFA next year) The future for the Canes in goal is: And guess what.... he was 2nd RD (36th overall) by ...wait for it ..... Carolina. And don't think for one minute he is not part of the Canes future. On 23 November 2022, Kochetkov was signed to a 4-year extension that will pay him an average of 2 million until 2026–27. A very friendly contract extension. Your example of Carolina is a poor example for a point you are desperately trying to make but to no avail. In today's NHL you simply cannot trade for everyone to get you over the hump or you simply will have no draft capital in order to restock the cupboard. In the same token you can't just sign every high priced FA because of this thing called the salary cap..... you might have heard of it. 14 hours ago, tucson83 said: why does it have to be bedard or burn the organization down? (checking notes) .... Chicago was an absolute dumpster fire before drafting (again checking notes) Toews / Kane. (2 players who are considered game changers) Bedard will be considered a gamechanger. McDavid / Draisaitl are gamechangers ...the Achilles Heal for the Oilers is in net. This team is not even a .500 team ... they are woefully under-talented with unproven players. Even Torts himself this team is not ready for anything. Did you even bother reading his statement/letter. There is no player or players out there that will magically transform this team. This team needs to jettison as much junk and dead weight as possible in order to build a firm foundation to move forward. This includes but is not limited to JVR / Hayes / Atkinson / Risto. The got wins over the absolute bottom feeders of the league ...... Outside of the Kings (hey a blind squirrel gets lucky every now and then), 4 out 5 of those wins are against the absolute worst teams in the league. So please spare us ..they are a .500 level team. NO THEY ARE NOT. This team has serious shortcomings in the form of what talent they have on the ice night after night. Hard work will only get you so far. In an extremely deep upcoming draft year, our stupid FO decided to trade our 2nd Rd pick, How the hell do you build a team like that with other teams cast offs. Ideally, yes ...in the long term, the likes of a Bedard or Fantilli will go a long way in righting this ship. Riddle me this ...... Who on this current Flyers team do you consider a gamechanger?????? (I will give you a hint .....there is none) (don't give me the answer of trading for one because realistically that does will not happen) Edited February 18, 2023 by pilldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, tucson83 said: look at the hurricanes, they have youth that's working, no one is burning their organization for not having a mcdavid or bedard, they can trade for vet pieces to get them over top, that's probably what we are right now, we are a 500 team that needs to add pieces from other teams to get this team over the hump, like why does it have to be bedard or burn the organization down? No. We're not. And it's not Bedard or burn the organization down. But you keep moving goal posts and it doesn't make any sense no matter where you're plopping your goalposts. Edited February 18, 2023 by ruxpin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 16 hours ago, pilldoc said: I am NOT paying 3 million per year for a 4th line winger. Scott Laughton says "hello". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 14 hours ago, tucson83 said: look at the hurricanes, they have youth that's working, no one is burning their organization for not having a mcdavid or bedard, they can trade for vet pieces to get them over top, that's probably what we are right now, we are a 500 team that needs to add pieces from other teams to get this team over the hump, like why does it have to be bedard or burn the organization down? This has been the Flyers mentality for 20 years, thinking they are one move away from the top every offseason and for some reason (mostly cap reasons), that move never comes or it does and it's cat food instead of foie gras. Someone tell tuscon83 it's not the 1990s anymore. While you're at it, tell the Flyers, too. A team like the Blues is going to have won a cup, traded away their assets that will be too old when they are good again, bottomed out, and be back in the playoffs before the Flyers. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 13 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: Scott Laughton says "hello". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 7 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: A team like the Blues is going to have won a cup, traded away their assets that will be too old when they are good again, bottomed out, and be back in the playoffs before the Flyers. I will wager a bet the Blackhawks will do the same thing ....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, flyer4ever said: EVERY cup winner since the 2010 finals appearance by the Flyers had multiple top 5 draft picks at the top of their lineup. You cannot compete for a cup drafting 15th every year. I think it's even worse than that. Here is a message I sent to my brother a couple months ago. "I think I did a similar exercise before. The past 20 cup winners, 11 had a 1st overall, 6 had at least a 2nd overall, and 1 had at least a 3rd overall draft pick. The 2 teams that won a cup without a top 3 pick - Detroit in 08 because they could always draft well, and st Louis in 19 because they got on a hot streak and caught lightning in a bottle. It shows how hard it is to win a cup without a top 2 pick. Flyers will never get it done without getting in the top 3." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucson83 Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 55 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: This has been the Flyers mentality for 20 years, thinking they are one move away from the top every offseason and for some reason (mostly cap reasons), that move never comes or it does and it's cat food instead of foie gras. Someone tell tuscon83 it's not the 1990s anymore. While you're at it, tell the Flyers, too. A team like the Blues is going to have won a cup, traded away their assets that will be too old when they are good again, bottomed out, and be back in the playoffs before the Flyers. im not living in the 90s, you are the one that's obsessed with cups and not living in reality, you cant accept anything what the nhl has done right now and how more difficult it has become to be contender because of the salary cap and draft lottery, what's so disrespectful is you criticizing the players because you cant get your way and it's not up to them or no one else in the nhl, it's luck that's it. and so what if we do win the cup the way we are doing it right now, are you really just going to hate the franchise despite winning one cup? talk about loyalty to the franchise and total disrespect to the players because they are ones that want to win more than you. shame on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 18 minutes ago, tucson83 said: im not living in the 90s, you are the one that's obsessed with cups and not living in reality, you cant accept anything what the nhl has done right now and how more difficult it has become to be contender because of the salary cap and draft lottery, what's so disrespectful is you criticizing the players because you cant get your way and it's not up to them or no one else in the nhl, it's luck that's it. and so what if we do win the cup the way we are doing it right now, are you really just going to hate the franchise despite winning one cup? talk about loyalty to the franchise and total disrespect to the players because they are ones that want to win more than you. shame on you. What's luck is your being able to find your way home without assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, tucson83 said: look at the hurricanes, they have youth that's working, no one is burning their organization for not having a mcdavid or bedard, they can trade for vet pieces to get them over top, that's probably what we are right now, we are a 500 team that needs to add pieces from other teams to get this team over the hump, like why does it have to be bedard or burn the organization down? I've never said that. I've said that the problem is that the team can go on like this - a bubbling, middling, .500 level could be a playoff team for an indefinite period of time. How do we know this? We've been watching it in real time for ten years. Trading Voracek for Atkinson, Gotstobethere for Ristolainen, is swapping deck chairs. Travis Konecny is 25. He's in his seventh season - no, really. He's been to the playoffs twice. And the team next year has $75 Million Dollars committed to players who have achieved absolutely nothing in their careers - $52M of that for the next three seasons. Add $6.25M for Ellis. Who at least had a pedigree. The answer is not "add another pricey free agent" - primarily because they can't - it's embark on an actual, rational, reality-based rebuild of the organization like the Rangers and Devils did. You know, the two teams in playoff position right now with a young core making moves to take the next step (Tarasenko). The Flyers are sitting in exactly the same place they've been for over a decade and trying the same "retool" approach. You bring up the Hurricanes - their young core is almost entirely drafted. They added Teravainen in his third year. They "went for it" with Pacioretty and Staal and have "a shot". They also have $29 Million in CAP SPACE next year while the Flyers have $8M. The differences between "successful" organizations in this league and the Flyers are obvious. Edited February 18, 2023 by radoran 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 5 hours ago, SCFlyguy said: A team like the Blues is going to have won a cup, traded away their assets that will be too old when they are good again, bottomed out, and be back in the playoffs before the Flyers. that is just ridiculous. And true. the Blues have 9 picks this year (so far) and 3 of them are 1R picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 6 hours ago, radoran said: The differences between "successful" organizations in this league and the Flyers are obvious. So you would think. I bet if you also went for ungodly stretches of time without oxygen, you too might struggle with simple pre-school concepts and insist on things entirely absent of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrittyForever Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, ruxpin said: So you would think. I bet if you also went for ungodly stretches of time without oxygen, you too might struggle with simple pre-school concepts and insist on things entirely absent of reality. The problem is that - yes - the Flyers have a nice group of young players. But they also have three seasons committed to guys who are in the way. If this year doesn't show that many expensive veteran guys aren't worth keeping solely in the interests of some lunatic "spend to the cap" maxim then I don't know what does. The team doesn't NEED Atkinson/Ellis - or even Couturier, Provorov, and... Sanheim!?!? "Laughts" can be the $3M transitional captain and "Catsey" can be the first line center and they can clear out a bunch of dead wood and cap space and set a foundation upon which to build instead of continually trying to "compete for a Stanley Cup." Stop planning to compete for one. Start planning to win the bloody thing. As it is they are the same bubbling middling "definitely a playoff team" they've been for ten freaking years. Edited February 19, 2023 by radoran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, tucson83 said: and so what if we do win the cup the way we are doing it right now, are you really just going to hate the franchise despite winning one cup? talk about loyalty to the franchise and total disrespect to the players because they are ones that want to win more than you. shame on you. What if "we" win the cup the way "we" are doing it right now? Please tell me you are Paul Holmgren, cause I'm not sure I can live in a world with two people like him. "They" ain't winning a thing. Edited February 19, 2023 by SCFlyguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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