Post Deadline Evaluation

[mojo1917]

8 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

I see the Laughs trading Marner this off season after another disappointing first round exit and that team extending him

Is this where a trade of Ivan Provorov happens?

The Flyers do not have a player like Marner. The defense holds the Leaves® back every year

They do have a player a player that can play on the left side with Ryan Ellis they actually have 2, Sanheim or York.

This would be the very definition of a good hockey trade.  Helps the Leaves® (TFG) helps the Flyers.

Edited March 23, 2022 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

I actually blame the Kings and Ron Hextall.

 

Why you say?

 

Because I think Ron used them (Kings) winning their first Cup as the lure to hire him and maybe even used to sell his idea.

 

It all started with saying they laid the foundation through a few good drafts and then it put them over the edge with a few acquisitions through various trades the biggest thanks to Homer himself (Richie and Crater) and then hooked him with the magic words "All it took was us sneaking in as an 8th seed" and Homer has never looked back...

 

...hence the reason I think he feels all they have to do is get in and that could be the Flyer's fate as well.

 

 

Well it's worked so well so far....

[flyercanuck]

Just now, mojo1917 said:

Is this where a trade of Ivan Provorov happens?

The Flyers do not have a player like Marner.

They do have a player a player that can play on the left side with Ryan Ellis they actually have 2, Sanheim or York.

This would be the very definition of a good hockey trade.  Helps the Leaves® TFG helps the Flyers.

 

 

 If that trade were to happen, fine. The problem, and you know it as well as I do, is it would be Provorov, 2021 1st, 2022 1st, Konecny and a 2nd of Leafs choosing for Stan Marner...whoever that is.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Well it's worked so well so far....

 

Well they need the first few good drafts first that is what he has Chuck for.

 

As you notice they are purging the club it seems of all of Ron's draft picks as if Homer is saying they can't be good picks because some the ones he has already moved maybe were against Homer's advice at the time of the selection.

 

Something we will never be privy of knowing.

 

Guess we'll. If the purge continues it will seem more true than not.

[mojo1917]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 If that trade were to happen, fine. The problem, and you know it as well as I do, is it would be Provorov, 2021 1st, 2022 1st, Konecny and a 2nd of Leafs choosing for Stan Marner...whoever that is.

you're pretty sure about this, eh?

How's about you leave Hatertown for 5 minutes and maybe discuss what that trade should look like, that might be fun and will make your bottle of antiacids last a day or two longer- for ****s sake

Edited March 23, 2022 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Is this where a trade of Ivan Provorov happens?

The Flyers do not have a player like Marner. The defense holds the Leaves® back every year

They do have a player a player that can play on the left side with Ryan Ellis they actually have 2, Sanheim or York.

This would be the very definition of a good hockey trade.  Helps the Leaves® (TFG) helps the Flyers.

 

I really don't want to move Ivan he is one of my favorite Flyers him and Hart so I am playing favorites. I don't care.

 

I want to fix Ivan.

 

Marner's 90 point season is as much in the past as Ivan's NHL leading among defensemen 17 goal season.

 

I am keeping Ivan.

 

But I would move Sanheim maybe for him.

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

As you notice they are purging the club it seems of all of Ron's draft picks as if Homer is saying they can't be good picks because some the ones he has already moved maybe were against Homer's advice at the time of the selection.

 

Something we will never be privy of knowing.

 

Guess we'll. If the purge continues it will seem more true than not.

This is an interesting theory. 

A lot of the guys we thought were on the come or "late round steals" have kind of leveled off, whether it's their fault or not.

The theory has a very Trumpian feel to it. Undo everything Obama did, it would definitely fit the times we're living in. Sad as that may be. 

[mojo1917]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I really don't want to move Ivan he is one of my favorite Flyers him and Hart so I am playing favorites. I don't care.

 

I want to fix Ivan.

 

Marner's 90 point season is as much in the past as Ivan's NHL leading among defensemen 17 goal season.

 

I am keeping Ivan.

 

But I would move Sanheim maybe for him.

 

 

 

I think this could be a good one for one trade.

I don't know if that makes it a blockbuster, but it is two big names, two good players that could help the teams involved. 

I don't think a pick is needed either way, JvR would have to go to make the money work. If the Flyers retain half of his salary it would be close.

I think more assets would need to be moved from PHI to TOR if Sanhiem is the player involved. 

That's not what i would be looking to do. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well they need the first few good drafts first that is what he has Chuck for.

 

As you notice they are purging the club it seems of all of Ron's draft picks as if Homer is saying they can't be good picks because some the ones he has already moved maybe were against Homer's advice at the time of the selection.

 

Something we will never be privy of knowing.

 

Guess we'll. If the purge continues it will seem more true than not.

 

Homer was definitely way better at drafting. He left the ol' prospect cupboard just loaded for Hextall. Let's see, from his 2007 draft 1st round there was...oops he traded him away, in the 2nd he got Kevin Marshall. Ya, Kevin Marshall.  Ok from 2008 1st...nope he traded him away too. But in the 2nd....d'oh, traded the pick. 2009 1st round...traded the pick. 2nd round...traded. Ok, 2010 1st...traded the pick. 2nd round...traded. He got Couturier the next year, for the pick he traded for Jeff Carter, our best goal scorer in forever. He'd already traded away our 1st.  And 2nd. Laughton and Stolarz came in the 1st and 2nd respectively in 2012. And in '13 it was Morin (swing and a miss) and Hagg. 

 

 Ya, I could see Homer knocking Hextalls drafting. 

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

you're pretty sure about this, eh?

How's about you leave Hatertown for 5 minutes and maybe discuss what that trade should look like, that might be fun and will make your bottle of antiacids last a day or two longer- for ****s sake

 

  Sorry for living in the reality of Fletchers trade history. It hasn't exactly been sunshine and lollipops, has it.

 

 Can you honestly say, with a straight face, his moves have greatly improved this franchise and have set us up for years to come? 

[mojo1917]

9 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

  Sorry for living in the reality of Fletchers trade history. It hasn't exactly been sunshine and lollipops, has it.

 

 Can you honestly say, with a straight face, his moves have greatly improved this franchise and have set us up for years to come? 

No.

I can with clarity say it has been a mixed bag.

Niskanen was a good trade, until he retired.

Ellis got rid of two dumbasses for a guy that hasn't played, but was good, and could like Couturier benefit from a year of not playing hockey.

His deadline deals were mostly not needle movers. 

Simmonds for Hartman would have been nice had he not let Hartman walk for Pitlick who can't stay on the ice.

The Giroux deal -- 

The Ristolainen extension was my least favorite.

Hayes looks better each night, his contract isn't great, but the player, when healthy, is good.

Also, so what? Neither of us can affect any change of the past nor do we have any actionable influence over the actual decision makers.

 

The proposed trade (Marner for Provorov) isn't in anyone's reality it is a theoretical exercise. 

I thought it up based on the conversation in the thread.

I've answered your question, how about you answer mine?

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I've answered your question, how about you answer mine?

 

 

 I did...my first comment was "If that were to happen, fine."

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

oops my bad.

 

you didn't even bury the lead.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Ellis got rid of two dumbasses for a guy that hasn't played

 

And one of them was even placed on waivers the other day and NO TEAM even wanted for a free....a 6-5 young right hand shot no one put claim in for...true story.

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Niskanen was a good trade, until he retired.

Raise that #1 seed in the bubble banner to the rafters.  Quite the accomplishment.

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Hayes looks better each night, his contract isn't great, but the player, when healthy, is good.

Did they get rid of the cap?

[GrittyForever]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Is this where a trade of Ivan Provorov happens?

The Flyers do not have a player like Marner. The defense holds the Leaves® back every year

They do have a player a player that can play on the left side with Ryan Ellis they actually have 2, Sanheim or York.

This would be the very definition of a good hockey trade.  Helps the Leaves® (TFG) helps the Flyers.

I could definitely see a discussion revolving around those two players taking place. I wouldn't want it though. 

 

Personally I do not like Marner as a player. I think he's soft and will always disappoint when it gets tough in the playoffs. Not the kind of guy you build properly around. (If Clarke still has final say no way is Marner ever coming here :))

I also still think with the right coach and a good partner Provorov can be saved. In the least I think it's hard right now to truly evaluate most Russian players. Many of them have to be a little messed up psychologically one way or the other with this whole Ukraine Russia thing. Has to effect them. That's not an excuse, I'm just not ready to give up on Ivan just yet. 

[FD19372]

Oh, I got excited over the headline. I thought the whole Flyers organization was getting properly "evaluated", by a trained, great psychiatrist. Carry on.

[MaineFlyFan]

41 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I also still think with the right coach and a good partner Provorov can be saved. In the least I think it's hard right now to truly evaluate most Russian players. Many of them have to be a little messed up psychologically one way or the other with this whole Ukraine Russia thing.

Wait.... IVAN... PROVOROV.... is Russian!?!?

[FD19372]

Slight overpay for Risto.

I was fine with the Giroux trade, though a bit underwhelming.. but I already knew this would be the case. Fletcher is in over his head as GM.

They got what they could for Braun, so I'm fine with it, but I'm disappointed that they couldn't move JVR.

[mojo1917]

58 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I also still think with the right coach and a good partner Provorov can be saved. In the least I think it's hard right now to truly evaluate most Russian players. Many of them have to be a little messed up psychologically one way or the other with this whole Ukraine Russia thing. Has to effect them. That's not an excuse, I'm just not ready to give up on Ivan just yet.

For me these thoughts are not what you should be looking for in your #1 defenseman.

I want Ivan to be the guy that lifts the pairing, to date he is not that guy. He's certainly good though and why I think he may be the player than can help bring some elite forward talent.

Good points about Marner though, and he's expensive to boot.

[GrittyForever]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

For me these thoughts are not what you should be looking for in your #1 defenseman.

I want Ivan to be the guy that lifts the pairing, to date he is not that guy. He's certainly good though and why I think he may be the player than can help bring some elite forward talent.

Good points about Marner though, and he's expensive to boot.

True. Maybe, just maybe paired with a healthy Ellis? Maybe. 

At the moment we have a lot of guys who can be seen as second pairing (or third pairing) D men but no top pairing stand outs. I still believe you build from the back out though so until we get the D fixed properly we will never move forward. 

[OccamsRazor]

16 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

For me these thoughts are not what you should be looking for in your #1 defenseman.

I want Ivan to be the guy that lifts the pairing, to date he is not that guy. He's certainly good though and why I think he may be the player than can help bring some elite forward talent.

Good points about Marner though, and he's expensive to boot.

 

See maybe that is part of the problem maybe Ivan is just a #2 nothing wrong with that. To start his career with Blues Pronger has McInnis so I am sure it could have been debatable about which one was the #1 or #2 and at the end of the day who cares besides maybe pay wise.

 

And isn't Marner a RW? Is your plan to move him to center?

 

And if so now you kind of have a log jam at RW now.

 

Where does TK, Atkinson, Tippett and Allison slot in at?

 

Myself I try my best to land Josh Manson to tutor young York on the 3rd pair and I would even give him 2nd pair money for two reasons one he would be the coach on ice and maybe by mid season if need be due to struggles you could bump Josh up to help steady Sanheim.

 

I know it isn't ideal to have Risto on the bottom pair but it isn't ideal to have Hayes as the 3rd line center but well Chuck started this mess.

 

And hoping and praying Ellis gets healthy and that would give you a very solid top 4 and if anything help ease the stress on Carter Hart and Felix Sandström.

 

Manson is the steady stay at home  porch clearer they should have targeted other than force Rasmus Gauthier to be a #3 or #4.

 

I call that because he reminds me of X-Flyer Dennis Gauthier with his game and lack of defensive acumen.

 

I'd rather have Provy than Marner myself.

[mojo1917]

@OccamsRazor

Maybe Marner isn't the guy then.

I was thinking in terms of guys that can back a defense up and there has been trade history with Toronto.

 

Ultimately two things are hurting the Flyers right now.

The first is there is a dearth of game breaking talent on the roster. 

There are a bunch of good players but no one like Panarin, Aho, Barkov and MacKinnon who can change the momentum of a game by themselves. And there isn't a defenseman that is controlling the game when they're on the ice like , Josi, Makar, Pelech or Hedman.

Short of overpaying for a free agent in a year when not too many game breakers may be available; I think Ivan for Player X is the best way to quickly change the make-up of the team.

 

The second is our group of good but not great players doesn't play in a way that maximizes their "good". 

There is no group identity, they are not hard to play against, they are not fast, they are not all good two-way players.

Coaching could help with this, for example Sullivan has the Pens playing a brand of hockey that is exciting and wins with or without the Big Three. I think Brind'Amour has the 'Canes playing in a way that it doesn't matter who plays where. 

So until there is a coach in place and direction the team is going to go vis a vis playing style and zero guys the other team has to gameplan for...I'm feeling pretty hopeless about the team.

Just throwing some names out there to see what might be "do-able".

[OccamsRazor]

26 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Coaching could help with this

 

Well I will suggest a very good sound head coach and that would be the guy who is also from Minnesota not born there but coaches there.

 

He also runs the US Junior team.

 

None other than Mike Hastings he spent a long time in the USHL and once he got to Minnesota St. he turned that program around quickly.

 

He would be a guy I would tab to do the same in Philly.

 

I think Hextall had the right idea going with a good hockey guy he just kind of screwed up picking Hak just because he was familiar with him when he son went to ND.

 

If you can get Mike Hastings to leave this would an amazing hire.