Vanflyer

Just an amazing athlete and perhaps the best in our era. Anyone have a bong??

I have a glass tube and a Brillo pad if you have ................. ....actually in poor taste given the Reid article, but I could not resist!

In fairness to the Pitts. fans, I have posted this in the Pitts. forum. There have been two running debates with the Pitts. fans. The first is who was the better LW between Stevens and LeClair. I posted a poll on the Flyers forum. The second is who was the better power forward between Lindros and Stevens. I thought it would be fair to add LeClair and tkachuk as well. If anyone has another power forward from the 90's that should be on the list, just state and I will edit the poll (come to think of it, I should / will add Jagr). Jagr and Lindros would be 1/2, 2/1 on my vote. Lindros would get the nod for me because he played Center AND made everyone around him better.

I have had some good discussions with Polaris and other Pens fans regarding Kevin Stevens, Leclair and Lindros. While this board is predominantly Flyers fan, I think most are objective and very knowledgeable. I think Stevens was a great player, but benefited allot from Lemieux / Francis / Jagr. Leclair of course benefited from Lindros. I also think that Stevens played a 90 foot game while Leclair played a 120 foot game (not great, but certainly much better than Stevens).

Okay, so you voted Bobs?? :-)

I voted 50-50, but I believe that Bobs will win the job.

I read your entire post- and it is a good reply. You get the nod on durability with Stevens. The minus is a point I made before regarding Stevens. I am not belittling him, but he was an offensive player only. The other point I would make is that Stevens played with two 1st ballot HOF centers (lemieux and francis) and a 1st ballot HOF RW (Jagr). Look at what Tocchet did playing with those guys. Stevens did not make other players around him better, but was the benefit of monster players he played with (see above). Lindros on the other hand made everyone around him better. All that said, I think this deserves a poll / separate thread given it is summer time and we do not have anything better to talk about.

I like the Fedotenko move. It is a minor move and adds a winner and role player.

Your points are well taken- particularly the hits. He is also a very good shot blocker. For me, there are a couple of things on the minus side: 1) He takes himself out of the play allot in hitting or trying to make a hit and leaves his partner hanging out to dry. 2) While being such a big hitter, most of his penalties are of the obstruction variety. With his skating skill, that is BS to me. You might laugh, but I think MAB will be the better d-man overall. When I see Sbisa, I always think he should be a forward (the same way I think of Subban).

That is a different kind of behind.

Me too. And while some may disagree, there is something to be said of being behind in the times / progress.

Not to digress the topic, but do you put Stevens ahead of Lindros in the "beast" category that you have seen? Since you are a Pittsburgh fan, I will give you a memory of "beast". Flyers v. Pittsburgh in the playoffs. I forget what year. Their was a game in Pittsburgh where Lindros controlled the puck for 30 seconds. He had two players on him, they hacked away his stick- yet he held the puck between his skates, picked up his stick, continued to muscle off the two Pitts players and made a one handed pass to LeClair in the slot. There have been many great feats in the NHL, but that was quintessential Lindros. I have never witnessed a player of that brute strength AND skill before or after. Also, while your comments of LeClair having Lindros is good, Lindros seldom was in front of the net. It was always LeClair (and thus why he dwindle in later years due to a poor back).

No offense taken. It is just perspective. At the end of the day, my opinion is that it is a path. Lets look at teams like Columbus (cough), Edmonton or even Pittsburgh. All of which build their teams via the draft and UFA and seldom relinquish first round picks (okay, not good examples since Nash and Stall have moved), but you get my point overall for the past 35 years. The debate is whether you want to have a competitive team every year that might strike lightning (see 2004 or 2010) or one that sucks for 5 or more years then has some good players that might strike lightning (see Pitts- they only won one cup with arguably two of the best players in the world).

We would go to the lake, but not fish (at least not in the sense I think you are intending). <_<

Your points are well taken. For me, I was referring to places like Yardley and Doylestown. Both have a shopping plaza, but no stripmalls. Both have sidewalks and one has the canal and toepath. The suburbia you describe is not suburbia to my perspective (but I know exactly what you are talking about). The suburbia you describe is just an extension of commercialism only and no sense of community / town. I have lived in some great cities: Portland, Vancouver, Seattle, San Fran. I don't belittle the value of a great city. But I also do not dispel the value of a small town / community.

Being half / half, and also a long time forum mate of yours, I will root for her as well.

My Father was a professor at BC3. My step brothers played football at William Tennant and the one was a huge star at the Penn Relays (and was scouted by Pro football teams before tragically dying in a horrific car accident on a rainy night). I never lived in the city, but can certainly understand how- as a kid, you would have angst moving to the burbs. Yet, as you said, living in Bucks County can not get much better for growing up.

I grew up in Yardley (before it was the fancy well to do place it is now). We had a house where my back yard was the canal. I played allot of hockey on the canal and afton pond and my formal hockey was played at Grundy in Bristol. Then we moved to central bucks (Doylestown). I played highschool hockey for CB East and club hockey at Faceoff Circle.

I spent my youth summers between Ohio (Oberlin / Sandusky) and Wisconsin (Lake Geneva). I loved Ohio, but it is true that it is 5 years behind the rest of the country.

I do. Of course I am still bias to LeClair sans the PIMS with Stevens. Stevens was a prototypical Flyer that we would all have loved (and the argument would be reverse if he wore O&B and LeClaire wore B&G). The pisser is that you also got Tocchet, who was Stevens v. 1.1 or even the same (just minus the offensive skill). Who was the GM then for those moves?

Yes on a sunny Sunday after he ate breakfast on his veranda. No lie.

I did not. I will still stand by my point that he (Sbisa) was not going to help in the immediate. As a total package- I agree it is hard to look at. We could have two 5/6 d-men and one 2nd line winger. But I would still do that move. None of those players are doing anything of consequence for Anaheim today.

Your points are good somewhat, but overall it is very subjective (the thread overall). I mean lets look at some of these: 1) Behn Wilson got us Doug Crossman and Scott Mellanby. Win. 2) Ken Linseman + a first got us Mark Howe and Derrick Smith. Win. 3) Ron Suter got us Rod Brind'AMour and Dan Quinn. Win. 4) Brian Boucher got us Michael Handzus & Robert Esche. Win 5) Dainus Zubrus got us Recchi back again. Win. 6) Joni Pitkanen for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul. Win. 7) Jeff Carter for Jakub Vorecek and Sean Couturier. Win. 8) Steve Downie for Matt Carle and 3rd round pick. Win. 9) Two first round picks for Chris Pronger. 2009 John Moore 2010 Emerson Eten. This is a hard one for me, but for what Pronger brought to the team, its a win. Moore is too young of a defensemen yet to judge (and would not have helped the Flyers in the immediate). Eten is highly regarded, but still playing juniors (as a 20 year old). Flyers Win- only because most said that Prongers knees were going to be his demise. His injury was a complete fluke. There were a bunch of neutrals I had as well. So, out of 34 #1 picks, I have listed 10 (pronger is 2 picks) where we have won (imho). A near 33% success rate. Truth be told, given where the Flyers tend to pick (last third of the pack), the chances of that particular pick having significant NHL success are about that, if not less. Go look at the last third of the drafts for the same time span. My point is it is a crap shoot beyond the top 10 most of the time. In fact, I could put a list together of more 2nd round picks by the Flyers over the same duration that had significant impact to the team. No snickers from the peanut crowd that want to laugh at Homers pension for trading 2nd rounders.

I think it is hard. I never lived in the city, but visited many times. I grew up in Bucks County. In that regard, its equally hard for me when I return (and I still own property there) and see all the "progress". Yet, nothing stays the same. For me- with Bucks County, I am sad to see many of the farms and "rural-ness" gone. It was a great place to grow up. Small towns while easily accessible to the big city, shore, and mountains. I can't speak for Neil and what his laments are. I do know that cities are very circular in how they progress and regress. One neighborhood can go to hell in a hand basket while another neighborhood is completely rejuvenated.

Regarding Stevens, I find him akin to LeClair (LeClair had lindros as Stevens had Lemieux AND Jagr)- and frankly I think Leclairs prime years were better than Stevens (minus the PIMs). While Leclair was not a selke finalist, he held his own defensively during his prime. The same can not be said for Stevens. Your points on the scoring are fair and I missed that. Regardless, any poll / list of that nature will come under the gun.